IFH 099: How to Write a Screenplay FAST with Jeff Bollow

Alex Ferrari 4:09
So without further ado, here is my interview with Jeff Bollow. Jeff, thank you so much for taking the time to jump on the the podcast. I really appreciate it.

Jeff Bollow 4:36
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Alex Ferrari 4:38
So, Jeff, tell me how you got into the film business in the first place this crazy business.

Jeff Bollow 4:43
I got into the film business well, I was a little kid. And I was dreaming of being a movie star and I decided to get in to pursue acting and I started acting when I was about 12. Okay, so I grew up in LA so it's been around me all my life. I just started pursuing that got some work as a as a kid actor and fell in love with the filmmaking process and started making my own short films and got bitten by the travel bug and moved to Australia. Where I tried to make an independent film with a friend of mine. We spent about seven years trying to make this

Alex Ferrari 5:22
Oh man,

Jeff Bollow 5:23
I've heard that story before. Yeah, I can imagine it. We ended up abandoning it in post production, because by the time we had gotten near to finishing, it had sort of already become a bit obsolete. Some of the references like structural story based references were out of date and that kind of thing. And just we sort of went okay, well, that was our film school, I guess, more or less

Alex Ferrari 5:45
so right? As a long film school. Yeah.

Jeff Bollow 5:49
Painful film school.

Alex Ferrari 5:51
I've had, I've been in post for 20 years, and I seen so many this kind of stories like, but I've never heard seven years, seven years as a record. Now I've heard, I've heard three. And we've been doing this for three or four years. And we're like, oh, man, that must just be

Jeff Bollow 6:04
painful. What we were doing for three or four years and then that sort of, you know, drags on because at a certain point, I mean, the biggest problem but, you know, you run out of money and yeah, keep gotta keep working to pay to generate the money to pay the bills and keep it going. So it just, you know, becomes weekends and evenings. And, you know, it's like a,

Alex Ferrari 6:24
it's like a really bad cocaine habit. You just have to keep working to pay for the drug. But that's not going anywhere yet, but I have to keep paying. So it's like it's a vicious vicious cycle.

Jeff Bollow 6:32
I've never had that habit. So I can't mean either, sir.

Alex Ferrari 6:35
I've only seen so far. I've only seen Scarface so this is my reference

Jeff Bollow 6:39
for movie references. I think that's true.

Alex Ferrari 6:43
Now, when you say you were an actor, you weren't one of my favorite movies growing up. Oh, don't tell mom the babysitter's dead.

Jeff Bollow 6:51
There you go. I said. I said the immortal ridiculous line puppet yourself. Metallica breath?

Alex Ferrari 6:57
Yes. I'm sure a highlight.

Jeff Bollow 7:02
I tried to get them to change that line. And the director is pretty adamant. So all right. Turns out there you go. It's the only it's my it's my one memorable thing from from 510 years of being an actor. So

Alex Ferrari 7:14
if that came out in what in the late 80s, early 90s I

Jeff Bollow 7:18
think well it was it's it came out it we shot it in 1990. It came out in 91 at basically the same time as Terminator two.

Alex Ferrari 7:26
Right so and it was actually a very it was a big hit for what it was it was a well,

Jeff Bollow 7:32
I mean they made it was a relatively low budget that they made it on so it certainly made its money back just barely, I guess at the at the box office. But then it was it was co financed by HBO film so HBO right, just ran it and reran it, ran it on on HBO in the early days. Right? And so it's sort of developed this I think cult following over the years through that largely. And it's bizarre to me that people still remember that film. Oh, no.

Alex Ferrari 8:01
I mean, I was working at a video store in 91. So I'm very well aware of that movie and and of course like everybody else at that time in history. I had a crush on Christina Applegate. So I had a crush on Christina Applegate. And she was still just the Married with Children girl and she just had her and she ran with it with that movie so so I don't mean to geek out guys about that. Don't tell mom the babysitter's that, by the way. If you haven't seen it, and you're a 90s kid, you should definitely definitely watch it. It

Jeff Bollow 8:30
really does capture that era pretty well. It's there's something there's something tangible about it like texturally it's it's it's interesting it's there. I mean, it's not you know, not the greatest movie of all time, but oh god no fun.

Alex Ferrari 8:43
It still it still has it still had some of the ad stank on it. But it has it wasn't. It was in a full 90s movie, but it had a little bit of ad stank slapped on just all those movies in 9091 92 they still had that as

Jeff Bollow 8:55
well. I remember somewhere someone had called it the last 80s teen comedy that was made in the 90s

Alex Ferrari 9:03
No, that makes perfect sense. Actually, that makes perfect. It's like I always said like, you know 1980 that's not really the 80s 80s didn't start till maybe 8182 he still got the stank of the 70s laying around.

Jeff Bollow 9:15
We haven't figured out what the 90s are yet.

Alex Ferrari 9:18
Exactly, exactly. So um, so you move to Australia. I have to ask you, how's the film business down there? Like how is it to make movies and we're on a production company and stuff.

Jeff Bollow 9:29
You know, the film industry in Australia. thing with Australia's it's a much smaller country. So there's only you know, compared to what 300 something million people in the US, there's 25 to 30 million in Australia. So everything gets gets scaled down almost by a factor of 10 kind of a thing simply because there's, you know, the audience, the homegrown audience isn't big enough to sustain, you know, the kinds of budgets that are made in from Hollywood films, that sort of thing. So it almost the industry there almost has an indie feel throughout except that there's this government funding sort of mechanism woven into the DNA of the industry. So so the way screenwriters for example, think about making money in Australia is they think about getting funding from the government $10,000 for a draft sort of thing, you know, so it's no,

Alex Ferrari 10:29
you got to know you're kidding me really,

Jeff Bollow 10:31
it really kind of that way. So it's so everyone is like competing, I guess, for government dollars, which is, you know, disconcerting for someone like me, who comes from LA, and has this sense of, you know, I want to make, you know, commercially viable films that have artistic merit and all that sort of thing. So to, to have to sort of fit into that it's difficult. So what ends up happening is, is, you know, you've got writers who are writing for something other than what someone like me is looking for, generally, right? large, right. So the great challenge, I think, of the Australian film industry is, I mean, the film industry anywhere, I guess, is making a living while you're trying to make your film. But there I think, because it's smaller, the upside of it is also smaller, so it doesn't attract as many people so it's a thinner field in which to play, I guess. I mean, it, they're very serious, they take it very serious, this great quality, particularly in the performing arts there. Which makes for a very robust community, but it's because it's a little small and a little parochial, it's very, it's, it's hard for, it's hard to build something and sustain it, they have distribution troubles, and it's, you know, Australians, the Australian audience often doesn't necessarily embrace Australian film, because it's, you know, first of all the marketing dollars spent by this studios in Hollywood films, you know, all the all the American films are coming down there with these enormous budgets, and just blanketing press coverage. So the little Australian film, even in Australia has a real hard time getting noticed and getting heard and it's in so in some ways, it really reflects the indie arena across the board.

Alex Ferrari 12:35
Gotcha. So in other words, if you made an indie film in Australia, you would have to bring it to Sundance to be big again, if that's true.

Jeff Bollow 12:43
It's it's a little ironic that way. It's definitely true that the films that have had breakout success really actually do succeed at overseas film festivals first,

Alex Ferrari 12:53
right? I remember Crocodile Dundee was the biggest hit in Australia for a long time.

Jeff Bollow 12:59
It was but that's sort of a US Australian. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that is similar with things like baz lurman film, you know, Australia or, you know, melon rouge or those kinds of like, it's Yes, technically, Australian, but most of the money it's us, the US so that it's a if you're talking about truly Australian homegrown product, it's, you know, the budgets are smaller in there. And they're more niche and it's, it's harder to find that audience. So it's a struggle, it's a it's a real struggle.

Alex Ferrari 13:32
And do you do you work in New Zealand as well? Do you jump in back and forth?

Jeff Bollow 13:36
Yeah, so when I moved down there, I ended up migrating to New Zealand. So I lived in New Zealand for many years and have you know, direct tv there and I've acted in commercials and shows and stuff there. So it's, I but you know, then you're scaling it down to a population of 4 million people,

Alex Ferrari 13:53
right? It's even smaller than Australia. Yeah. So

Jeff Bollow 13:55
one of the one of the big problems and I think this is it, I think it gives me an interesting perspective on all this is, if your market is small, you in order to make something at a larger scale, or something that that resonates with audiences wider, you really have to have almost a global perspective on it, rather than the perspective of the local the challenge of that is that we want to see local stories. And so if you you know, there's that whole idea of stories with universal themes, right, like universal themes are best expressed through specific local you know, right if you if you tell a local story that resonates culturally locally, there's a great film I don't know if you ever saw it out of New Zealand called whale writer no Yeah, of course. It's

Alex Ferrari 14:46
wonderful film

Jeff Bollow 14:47
fantastic film. It's so very specifically New Zealand it's very specifically the Maori culture. It's very specifically it's it's small and indie but it it's themes that we that read All right, so it's the parent, the parent child relationship. And where do I fit in? And in my culture now that the culture isn't quite what it once was, and all those kinds of things we can relate to that. Whether we're in Australia, whether we're in the US, we can relate to that story. But yet it's a very specific locals story. I think that is that's a great takeaway for for filmmakers.

Alex Ferrari 15:26
No, what now what drew you to kind of get into the storytelling aspect and the screenwriting aspect of things?

Jeff Bollow 15:32
Well, when I was in Australia, and I had a good friend of mine down there, and I were wanting to make a film, and I was waiting for him to get his, I don't know if I can use the word shit. I've been waiting for him to get as good as

Alex Ferrari 15:50
stuff here, it's tough to get this stuff together.

Jeff Bollow 15:54
So, you know, I was waiting and waiting and waiting. And I just got very frustrated, I felt at a certain point that I was like, you know, I grew up, I grew up in LA, so to be sitting in New Zealand going, what am I doing, or, you know, at a certain point, it's like, I just need to write something, and we need to go try to make it. So I did that I don't particularly love writing, I'm, I think I'm good at it. But that's not where my passion lies, my passion is in directing and producing. And so. So when we, when we were in that three or four years into production, and post production on that film, that we ultimately abandoned, I started looking for other scripts. And I put out a call, I was back in Australia at this point, put in a call Australia wide, looking for screenplays, and got in probably about 300 scripts that knowing how hard it was for me to write, I committed to reading every word of every small my man, Josh, and I will never do that, again. Because it quickly becomes apparent that there's no if most people don't know what they're doing,

Alex Ferrari 17:04
of course, here here in LA as well. It's a they don't have a monopoly on not knowing what they're doing. It's LA is very much the same way.

Jeff Bollow 17:15
Exactly. But but but when you as you start reading this stuff, you look at it from the perspective of the reader and the perspective of someone going, I want to make a film, let me see if there's something that I can find out there. Because I don't want to write something again, you start to see all the problems and you start to realize that, you know, I can I can get 30 pages in and realize there's no point in reading any further. And then as you read more you go, I really only need to read 10 pages, and I don't need to go any further. And eventually I realized that, you know, I can actually determine whether or not a script is legitimately viable. In about two sentences. Like It's really that easy to determine. And, and it's now cut to 16 years later, and my production company has a submissions forum on the website. And we've had submissions from all around the world, over 25,000 submissions. And literally I have found about 20 projects. And you go Okay, at a certain point. So it's, it's pretty much you can and this is the this is the reason producers don't want to hear the pitch. This is what the reason people don't want to read your screenplay is because 99.9% of them are awful. So it's more not awful, but just unusable. So not viable, not a viable product. They're not viable. And even if they are viable, they're not viable for that producer at that moment, right. So So ultimately, they're kind of right to say I'm not going to read your, your material, which creates that catch 22. So here I am in Australia saying, okay, but I need scripts, I mean, we need we need, what are we going to make, I don't want to sit down. And so I have this ambition to start an independent film studio that would make between three and six films a year, this was my goal back 1617 years ago as well. And the if you've seen my TED Talk, that's those are the kinds of films that I want to make, right? So I had this sort of big vision for changing the future and not changing the future, but preparing people for what's to come. I want to make movies that inspire us for what I believe to be a radically different future that's on its way to us.

Alex Ferrari 19:43
So okay, so can you talk a little bit because I loved your TED Talks. One of the reasons why I reached out to you I absolutely love your tech talk. Can you talk a little bit of fuchsia, can you share a few of the points in your talk to the audience? Well,

Jeff Bollow 19:55
so the basic idea is that there's this notion of exponential change, it's really hard for people to wrap our brains around what exponential change means. But the simplest way I think to grasp it is, is technology increases exponentially. So, so if you have a computer and you use that computer to build a better, faster computer, it's going to double the output of it, right? So but then that new computer, building, a new computer will double the output again. So rather than going step one to step two, to step three, to step forward to Step five, you go, step one to step two, to step four, because you've doubled to step eight,

Alex Ferrari 20:42
because you're double attached, and go on and on and on. Exactly.

Jeff Bollow 20:45
And but this is the nature of progress. This is the nature of change. And I believe that the future is going to look radically different to today, by essence by by the fact that everything is changing on this exponential scale. So we're early in the in the exponential curve, which is why doesn't seem all that groundbreaking. But if you actually go back and look at don't tell mom the babysitter's dead, like many things about society are quite the same. But it's a dramatically different world that we live in. Oh, Jesus. Yeah. And it's going to get extremely dramatically different from here. As you know, things like, Well, look,

Alex Ferrari 21:30
I'll just use a perfect example. I since I live in LA, I just discovered maybe I'm old, but I just discovered Amazon now. Okay, and I don't know if you know about Amazon now. Which one is that? Amazon now is you log onto Amazon, you can you can just place an order, and it's at your doorstep in two hours, right? Yes. Yeah, that's insane. Like, that's the first and literally the first time I did it. I was like, I'm going to see if this is real. I really was I honestly I'll order this Sure. Sure. I'll give you a tip. No problem. And I really thought it was a scam, like, Nah, it's just it's never gonna and then an hour later, I hear knock on the door. I'm like, Wow, really? I'm like, you've got to be kidding

Jeff Bollow 22:14
me. So but that's, that's delivery distribution, right? But take it another step further. What about 3d printing? What about when you can go on to Amazon? And you say, I want this pair of pants and your 3d printer prints the pants for you? Or take it another step and say, I'm I'm hungry right now. And the 3d printer prints a beautiful, healthy organic meal for you Star Trek style Star Trek style, right? Yeah, absolutely. And it you know, what was one science fiction becomes imagination to the next generation of scientists who then turn it into reality. So there's no, when we look at science fiction, we have to, we have to realize someone's getting inspired by that sci fi. And this, if somebody sits and figures out how to make this happen, this may be our future. So

Alex Ferrari 23:02
it was just like what happened with banks in the future to the bank that came out in the nine I think 1990 and a lot of a lot of the stuff that they predicted came true. A lot of it didn't but you know, sure there is there is a hoverboard you know, it's it's not like everyday stuff by Mattel.

Jeff Bollow 23:19
That's the one that blows up though.

Alex Ferrari 23:20
No, not that hoverboard. There's an actual hoverboard that uses the same technology well, levitation

Jeff Bollow 23:24
technology or trains that work on maglev. So it's I mean, but i think i think i think the thing is that when the way we live our lives, because we're all sort of, you know, beholden to paying our bills and whatever. I mean, we live our lives today, we imagine that the future will look like today, but a little more gadgety and a little faster, right. But, but we're not paying attention to the fact that those changes are, are approaching how fast they're get here is anyone's guess. But I think they're approaching faster than we imagined. So, you know, to me, I see the future as a as a very, very different place than than what we exist, what exists today in 2016.

Alex Ferrari 24:09
And that's basically the essence of the TED Talk, like to prepare yourself for what's coming.

Jeff Bollow 24:14
Well, and so the TED and so the TED talk then takes that idea and says, you know, that this launched me into this launch me into this desire to make this film studio beak in part because well, no, so I wanted to go into I wanted to create movies and television entertainment about these ideas, but through the process of teaching, through the process of saying, Okay, well people have great ideas. I need great screenplays. How do we get them from here to here? And I sat down and a basically reverse engineer the process, and people don't understand this concept very well because a lot of people think fast screenplays a screenwriting course. It's not, it's at the end of the day, whatever technique you use, whether you use the three act structure or you know, whatever 10 other formulas are out there, everyone goes through the same process, the process is start with the idea, turn it into a story, get it on the page, shape it, reshape until it's solid, make it a compelling read for the reader, and then connect it with the people that you're trying to reach. Right. So that process is the same, that's what I basically did. But through the act of reverse engineering, that process, I came to see and appreciate and realize how creativity works, and how imagination works, and how we harness imagination and creativity, and turn it into something that satisfies our own goals. But and so as you start to look at this on a, I guess, meta level, you start to realize that will really every person on this planet, goes through that same process during creativity, right, we all witness life through a different vantage point, right, you're seeing whatever you're seeing in this moment, wherever you are. And anyone who's listening to this is seeing something completely different to what you're saying completely different to what I'm seeing, and our backgrounds are all completely different as well. So we interpret it differently. So in I guess, this analogy, this metaphor that I came up with is that the earth is like a giant brain. And we're like individual neurons. And so when we interact with each other, we're, we're sparking that other neuron, right? Where when I say something to you, that resonates with you, you go, oh, wow, that's really cool. And then you incorporate it into your thinking. And then that sort of informs where you go from there. Similarly, when you say something to me, or a list of on your podcast, and I go, oh my god, that's so amazing, or this person's fantastic. So writing, creativity, filmmaking, storytelling, is that, right? So it's, it's, when you're trying to tell a story, when you're trying to write a script, when you're trying to make a movie, you have an idea in your head that you're trying to share with other people with an audience with the world, right? You want you want the most people possible to hear your idea and to understand it and to connect with you and and to inspire them. So it's all kind of the same thing.

Alex Ferrari 27:43
So then, basically, so so let's back up for a second you have you have a system called fast screenplay. Basically, it's a it's a system, correct? Because we kind of went into it first before explaining what fast screenplay was. So can you can you break down the seven parts? Or did you already the seven part system of fast screenplay and then from what I'm getting, just so I understand, it's not a like how to write a screenplay. It's a different kind of process to get the idea to the final end, end point. Is that kind of what it is, we'll

Jeff Bollow 28:14
know it's both Okay, so Okay, so let me let me back up a second. So fast screenplay, fast is an acronym. So it's all capital letters, right? Focus is the F. A is for apply. S is for strengthen, and T is for tweak. So what I realized when I sat down to sort of reverse engineer this process is that writing is a, there are four phases to writing. The first is to focus your ideas, where you basically take all the random ideas that you have, and you focus them into a specific story, right? one you choose, you choose and shape your your story. Now once you have your story, you have to get that onto the page, you have to write it, which I call the apply phase, you're applying that story plan that you created. Right, so there's your first draft, once you have your first draft, you have to rewrite you have to strengthen it to make it in sync with your intentions. So make it the best story that it can be. Once you've got it being to be the best story. Then you tweak the words you polish it, you refine it so that the readers experience when they read your script is there it's a page turner, it's compelling. They want to go through this experience. So focus, apply strengthen tweak is the writing process. So about what 10 years ago now I wrote a book called writing fast how to write anything with lightning speed, which you can get on Amazon. The Kindle version is really cheap. Anyway, so but that's the that's the four part writing process. Now, what I also realized was that if a writer goes out and starts just writing scripts, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're writing something that a producer like me could use, right? So the only way that they're going to write something that I can say yes to is if they write something that is aligned with my needs, right? So that doesn't necessarily mean they have to write for me, maybe they write something that's so amazing, I want to make that film. One way or another, though, we have to be aligned in order for us to sit for me to say yes, and for us to move forward and make the film. So what I realized was, you could actually add a phase before this writing process, which I call the setup phase, which prepares you for the process and sort of pre aligns your imagination with the needs of the producer. So that when you start the process of writing, you're your, your brain is always serving up material to you that is in sync with producers needs, right, so you're not going off away on a tangent, but it's still your creativity, it's still whatever it is you want to write. Right. So then you go through that process. Once you're done, you're going to need to get notes and feedback, you're going to need to see how your work is interpreted and responded to by other people. So we have what I call the alignment phase. And that's basically you're sending your workout for notes and feedback. And how do you interpret notes and feedback? So many writers and I've given notes over so many years now that writers drive me crazy, because they take notes personally. Yep, they say, Hi. How dare you not appreciate and respect the brilliance of what I wrote, and you're like, Okay, I'm giving you a note telling you what the reaction to your work is. And rather than taking that and adapting your work, so that it serves your goals, you're going to reject the note out of hand and take it like I'm like, I'm killed your baby, right? So you go ego, it and egos ego really gets in your way. And at that stage of it, because at the end of the day, we all write crap, I've written so much crap, it's not even funny, right? arguably, maybe the things I'm talking about right now. But that's for someone else to decide. But at the end of the day, all the goal is not good or bad, the goal is creating something that is effective at what you're trying to get across. So the alignment phase helps you see what other people are getting, and then adapt what you what you've created, so that they get what you want. What you want them to get, also teaches you the skill of adapting your work to the needs of a producer, if you want to go that road. Right? So then the final phase is the payoff phase, which is where now that you have this script now that has been through this process now that it's aligned with. So you know, it's, you know, they like it, you know, it's what they want, how do you then connect with the producer? And how do you identify what produces and how do you then connect with them? So it the whole system of fast screenplay, the seven phases, set up focus, apply, strengthen, tweak alignment? payoff, it's a, it's huge, of course, no, it's

Alex Ferrari 33:10
absolutely it's so

Jeff Bollow 33:11
it probably takes about a year to learn the process. But I also have then subsequently distilled each of those steps, so that once you get the whole process, you can then condense it, and you can move through it and gradually make the process intuitive, which is what leads to mastery. So it's sort of this thing that looks daunting at the start, but it's really not because most writers think they know all this stuff. And they really just don't, I mean, even intermediate, even advanced riders, to be honest with you, there are things throughout the system that they just barely go, I never even thought of that before. Or this fills in a gap of something that I didn't know before. So the point my point in creating the system wasn't to teach screenwriting, I have no interest in becoming some screenwriting guru. This is not like I'm at the end of this road, I don't want I don't want this to be my life from here. I created this because if you're in Australia, and you can't find scripts, and you don't have discretionary funds to pay writers to just develop stuff, which may or may not end up getting produced, because that's wasted money. And when every dollar counts, you can't spend that money. I basically needed an in house script development system like a studio might have, but out of house, right? Like I needed something that anyone could go start here, go through this deliver something that we could make. So the idea was hopefully through this process, we will end up getting scripts and stories, some of which will be aligned with what we want to make some of which writers will go off and find other producers. But then in theory will gradually as more people discover it, be able to make Three to six films a year, and then hopefully change the world.

Alex Ferrari 35:04
So based on basically what you created fast screenplay was a selfish reason you just want better screenplays.

Jeff Bollow 35:09
That's pretty much. I want Well, I want I want better screenplays that I don't want to have to write them myself.

Alex Ferrari 35:15
Exactly. So then since since you've already said you've read tons of scripts 1000s of probably your lifetime, what are the most common mistakes? You see with first time screenwriters?

Jeff Bollow 35:27
I mean, seriously, the the, it's across the board, you you have problems of ideas, selection, there's like people will have an idea. And the kernel of the idea is good, but then they've turned it into a story that just doesn't really make any sense or is not the best expression. Look, think about the reasons why you you watch a movie and you don't like the movie? I mean, how many movies do you watch for you go, that was awesome. Like That was fantastic. Like, it's actually a few.

Alex Ferrari 35:59
I just actually I just actually watched last night for the first time, the Grand Budapest Hotel. I love that movie. And a was but I just loved it. Like my wife and I sat there and go, it's so unique. It's such a well told story. It's so beautiful to look at. It's just gorgeous film. And that's like, it's rare. And it's rare to actually hear yourself say, that was a good movie. And then of course, I saw spotlight and The Big Short and a bunch of the Oscar nominated films as well this year, but just grab Buddha tests like oh, we just have never got around to it was like my god, that was really a good film.

Jeff Bollow 36:32
Well, and so if but if you think about then all the other films that you've seen that you sort of go, Well, it was good or hands okay. Or or you walk away going, geez, that was terrible. Like, the The reasons are, there are many different reasons for that. But now think about this as screenplays where you're going to have the same reaction, you know, you're not going to like every screenplay that you read, even if a screenplay might be good. I mean, there are some awards contenders this year that it's not my thing.

Alex Ferrari 36:59
Right? Right. Of course, of course, I'm

Jeff Bollow 37:01
not into it. So. So we have that we have you have writers don't grasp the essence of the character transformation. I mean, stories are about a character, or a situation or something changing. So what changes it if that change happens too fast or too slow, or it doesn't? It doesn't it's not plausible, or it's just not handled very well. All that can be problems, you have problems of dialogue, you have problems of structure, structure, grammar, grammar, but but structure, I want to be clear, just because it's not 3x structure does not mean it has problems of structure. I think there's over reliance on a three act structure, I've got a video series that I'm working on at the moment, that'll should be up end of February or so on the YouTube channel. But that, that addresses why our reliance on the three act structure is maybe a little little too extreme, right? That's one story form. But at the end of the day, a film structure has to be right for it. It has to be right for what you're trying to say and how you're trying to set and the point and purpose that you're trying to get across.

Alex Ferrari 38:10
Well, you know, like watching Pulp Fiction in a different structure is like if you did a proper three act structure in chronological order, that movie doesn't have the same thing.

Jeff Bollow 38:20
Absolutely, yeah, that's absolutely true. So So there but so when I say that, that most films have structural problems, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's that they're not adhering to three actors. So it's, it's but but yes, structure is a huge problem for for a lot of writers and, and, you know, also just writing style is a big thing people don't necessarily appreciate but if you're reading lots of scripts, there's something to be said for like a really great writing style, like something that just pops off the page and, and implies more than it says, you know, there's their screenwriting requires an economy of words that writers often don't fully appreciate where in some ways you want to use three words instead of 10. But you want those three words to say more than the 10 would have. Right? So it's it there's a lot in the in the whitespace there's a lot in the in the there's a lot that's implied that should be implied in the way a great screenplay reads and if writers can really learn to play with that it'll make their it'll make their scripts jump out a lot better

Alex Ferrari 39:29
I know there's some some screenwriters that when you read because I've read so many bad screenplays in my life MINE MINE included I'm in the same boat MINE MINE included without question

Jeff Bollow 39:40
my earlier efforts are like

Alex Ferrari 39:42
oh move some rough stuff. But but then you read Shane Black's old stuff like you know Lethal Weapon and last me

Jeff Bollow 39:51
a bit heavy but

Alex Ferrari 39:52
yeah, it's heavy, you know, obviously for the time period, but still the stuff you could see that voice is so clear Walter Hill back in the day. melius you know who was an insane writer and of course Tarantino and million other right? But when you start reading those guys, they all have very, very unique voices. And they and it pops right off the page like you read a Shane Black script, it's Shane Black, you read it. Obviously Tarantino probably has the loudest of all of those voices.

Jeff Bollow 40:17
Yeah. There's some there's a danger though also with that, because often the scripts that you find online are some of the most beloved scripts that you find online are written by writer directors. And right if you're writing a screenplay on spec, if you're, if you're not going to make your own film, then you have to be careful, because there are certain things that writer directors will do, they'll include shots, or they'll include certain language that they can get away with, because they're describing how they're going to film it. But as the as the, as the writer, submitting your project, trying to get a story made, you don't want to include that stuff. Because you really want the creative team that is going to ultimately say yes, and make your film, you want them to infuse their own creative vision into it. And so if you steer it too much from a, you know, a control standpoint, then it's a turn off to the reader. And, you know, I can't tell you how many times you read a script, it's like, okay, you think you're directing this?

Alex Ferrari 41:24
Right and that yeah,

Jeff Bollow 41:26
this isn't even written well enough. Like let alone directed. Well, no, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 41:30
Yeah, I was told many years ago, you know, by many different people. Like don't put direction in a script. Unless you're directing if you're directing it, do what you want. But generally don't put like close up here. Dolly in here. Like don't do that. Because exactly for that reason, like yeah, obviously a Tarantino movie, we'll have that because he's going to direct it. But like, if you read you know, Shane Black's last the last Boy Scout, which was his he wasn't a director back then. Or lethal weapon. He wasn't a director back then those scripts just I mean, they are 80s. And they are, they are what they are. But they're so well put together. I mean, and I still put up lethal weapon is one of the best action films. Oh, I agree. And Die Hard. I mean, Jesus, I mean,

Jeff Bollow 42:14
absolutely. But and they stand the test of time because the stories are so rich, the characters are so well written and the and the pacing and the tension and the

Alex Ferrari 42:23
masterful, it's masterful to watch, like, you know, considering like watching an action movie today. And then watching Lethal Weapon One, two predator, the original predator or diehard, those 80s action movies that are just like you could pop them in right now. And they do their job, they will do their job. So well. I mean, even Star Wars for that matter, the original Star Wars. I mean, that was in the 70s. There's not many movies that were done in the 70s that hold today, like you could put Star Wars in right now. I'll put it on for my six year old. And

Jeff Bollow 42:56
Hang on, though part of that is is because the setting isn't the 70s

Alex Ferrari 43:00
correct. But the storytelling is universal forever. Yeah, obviously. Yeah. Well, but like the Godfather, you could put the Godfather on. And it's still holds very much, though the pacing is a little different than what people are used to today, especially now with the new seven hour version being released on HBO, a godfather one and two, which I'm really interested in, I'm not sure if I had the time to watch that.

Jeff Bollow 43:21
That's the big question then, like, who has the time to watch it who's gonna sit down and watch seven hours of the Godfather? I think one of the frustrating things for me at the moment, though, is that, you know, we have we are technologically capable of making extraordinary stuff today. And, and one of the biggest, I think, let downs his story in script development, because because people, people are so enamored of the production process and the post breckland Cg and editing, all this stuff, the stuff that the stuff that all you really need are the tools and you can start tinkering. When it comes to writing, we all have the tools to start tinkering is a little harder because it's there's no defined shape to what it's supposed to look like. And you know, you can you can write in anything you could write on the back of a napkin at the end of the day, right? It's not, you know, the, what you ride on how you ride is not the most important thing. What's important is taking that idea, turning it into a compelling story. And there's this almost pervasive attitude of, well, I'm just going to bang out a script. You know, I'm just going to spend two weeks or three weeks knocking out my screenplay, and I'm ready to go, alright, and it's like you wouldn't expect I remember doing a workshop, a live workshop in Melbourne, in Australia once and this woman had attended and she was a novelist. And she made these epic fantasy novels like each novel would have 800 pages, multiple trilogies on the bookshelf at the local bookstore. And she was she had come to do my screenwriting workshop because she's said, in between my big 800 page novels, I usually have a month or two off, and I'll I thought I'd bang out a script between them.

Alex Ferrari 45:09
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Jeff Bollow 45:19
Oh, okay. So. So I met up with her like six months later and said, how's it all going? She said, I was amazed to discover that it's as much work to write a screenplay as it is to write an 800 page novel. If I could, if I could just let that point sink in the minds of every writer, I encounter, oh, my God, life would be so much better. Because if you if you if you realize that that's the amount of effort and skill and nuance that you have to use, I think you would treat the whole thing much more seriously. And if you treat it more seriously, you're you're more likely to create better quality. I mean, I don't know how old you are. But the you know what I worry about?

Alex Ferrari 46:09
What we're about the same vintage, I think, probably so you're a little younger? Probably. I'm not sure.

Jeff Bollow 46:15
Okay, so we so what you know, but when we were young, we probably wrote stuff, we probably tried to make stuff, you look back at it now. And it was terrible. Like new writers don't have the benefit of that. So they assume that what they're creating is great. Even though like when I create something, if I write today, I'm assuming it's not good enough, you know, I'm going into it with the assumption that I'm seeing those, those early drafts of stuff that I wrote 20 years ago. So

Alex Ferrari 46:45
you know, what was interesting with your dad, I'm gonna cut you off. But what's interesting with what you're saying is, it's so so true, because when you're, when I started writing at the beginning, or creating things at the beginning of my career, I just assumed that they were awesome, right? It just didn't only

Jeff Bollow 47:02
not I mean, that's kind of where the inspiration comes from. So you were right, hit berate yourself, and assume it's awful. And we're gonna keep going, though,

Alex Ferrari 47:10
but there's a sense of, there's a sense of being humbling as life as life beats you down in the business beats you down as you go through it. And this and this is at every level, I feel that a certain time like now I sit down to create something, I don't assume all of a sudden, it's awesome, I beat it up a lot more I look at it more I analyze it more to see to see if it's like I put it to the test to see if it holds up, where at the first like, you would just put something out there and you're like, Oh look, and then the world will beat it up for you, as well. And they'll do a great job by the way, they do a fantastic job doing

Jeff Bollow 47:48
that. But you know, I really think it's also in how you interpret things. So if you if if when you say the world beats you down or or you get beat up for your story, on some level, all all that the world is really doing and saying to you is that you're out of alignment, right? You're not what you think you're trying to achieve. You haven't presented in a way that is achievable yet and if you if you I think if in general, we not you specifically but we all start to look at the negatives at the rejections at the nose at the at the criticisms, if we look at that, through that filter of Well, okay, so the thing that I put out there didn't resonate, why? I think it will help us improve it helps us It helps us adapt, refine, because ultimately success is available to absolutely anyone who wants it. Yep, really is because all that you have to do is not give up. That's it. I like to say there's only two outcomes for screenwriters. Either you're going to see your movie gonna, you're gonna see your movie made your script made into a movie, or you're going to quit. That's it, there's no other option. No, someone says no, then you adapt, you refine, you keep persisting until you get made his movie.

Alex Ferrari 49:09
You know, I always use I've used this example on the show before but the matrix, I heard the story of the matrix on a documentary I was watching probably with, like a year ago or something. And what I found out was that the script was you know, so obviously revolutionary, and the story was so out there that people don't really understand it. It took so long to get it made. It took about four to five years. Yeah, to get made. And in that time, they shot bound that the warshawsky brothers at the time were shot bound to kind of prove that the contractor but during that five year period, they were beating the hell out of the script. Yeah, they rewriting it and rewriting it and so by the time they finally got to make it, that was the tightest script in the world, they they they beat that thing up so much. So by the time it got released into the world, the world couldn't do any more beating it Because it couldn't tear it down, they've made something so structurally sound, that there's it. There's nothing you can do to tear it down. It was just it was just it's like Shawshank Redemption you watch shank redemption you just go. There's I can't. I can't say though anytime I feel bad I do look up bad review Shawshank. And there are there are some By the way, and I love reading them because it just like you create it.

Jeff Bollow 50:24
This is an interesting point because ultimately, I used to use exactly that as an example in my live workshops, I would say, you know, ultimately, there will always be people who hate what you do. There will always be people who try to knock you down or not even maliciously, maybe they just genuinely don't like it. That's okay. I mean, if you if you go back to that brain metaphor analogy, you know, not everything that you put out into the world is going to electrify all the other neurons in the system right now, it's only All that matters is is that it lands with where you're trying to land it, you know,

Alex Ferrari 51:05
exactly, exactly. Now, can you can you talk a little bit about this free course that you were they've been working on for a year, the fast story development, how to create the detail.

Jeff Bollow 51:12
Yeah, so. So it's a it's a, it's a four part, YouTube video series. So if you haven't been to my YouTube channel, check it out. There's a lot of me talking. But it's youtube.com slash fast screenplay. And there are, what 30 videos or something like that there at the moment. And this one is a four part series. So one of my biggest challenges is helping people really understand what fast screenplay is all about. So I wanted to do something that was both simultaneously really quality information people could use and run with immediately. But also something that through through explaining that helps you really understand what what fast then is all about. So it's a it's a four part series. That's called fast story development, how to create detailed, original stories in one hour. And so it's got four parts. And the first part is the hidden story dynamic. So as I'm reverse engineering, this process, I'm looking at the three act structure, why does it work when it works, why doesn't it work when it doesn't work. And I realized that there's this sort of hidden story dynamic underneath it all sort of what I call the building block of all storytelling, but that building block then also applies to, you know, infinitely beyond just storytelling, it's almost like the building block of anything that we choose to do, which means you can actually apply it to story development as well. So in part two, it's called How To Grow stories organically, where you basically start with an idea, and you more or less, just grow it organically into a compelling screen story. So I walked you through that. Now once you've walked you through that, then Part Three is how you can do that entire process in one hour. So I walk you through that. And then part four is why you'd even want to do this why speed actually turns out to be the key to writing success. So each each one's like about 10 minutes a little less than 10 minutes long. And and they're they're full of animation and all this stuff, which is what has been taking so long, firstly nailing it down. So it's so you know, the pacing, and all, all the normal stuff, make sure that it's effective and entertaining, but also that it is legitimately helpful. I think all four episodes are just packed with stuff that people will be able to use immediately whether they continue on to fast screenplay or whether they go off and do their own thing. It's my goal. My goal has never been to be a screenwriting teacher. So ultimately, if you don't join me, that's not the end of the day for me, like I fast is fast is not about making a profit. All proceeds that come into fast get reinvested into fast to make it bigger and faster and to make it you know, expanded

Alex Ferrari 54:22
exponentially as you said, yeah.

Jeff Bollow 54:25
Yeah. So it's, I mean, it's, you know, I want to make my money off of the movies that I make eventually, right? So I'm not, I don't I don't take, I don't take a salary from fast or any of that stuff that I really want people to do fast, because it's going to help them get where they want to go fast. And yeah, well, yeah. Ultimately, fast has multiple meanings. There's the idea of writing it fast. But really, there's no point in writing something fast if it's crap, right? So the only fast screenplay actually refers to the speed at which the screenplay reads. So when I as a as a producer, when I, if I'm, if I'm looking at a screenplay to evaluate it, if it's a slow read, there's no way it's going to be bought. It's just not going to happen. Right? Like, if it's a fast read, that means it's a page turner. That means it's grabbed me, it's pulled me in. I'm there, I want to see what happens next. So a fast screenplay is a screenplay that reads fast. It's a screenplay that people want to find out what happens next for, that's what everyone wants to write. That's what you should want to write. Now, writing that fast requires mastering a whole lot of skills and nuances and details, character structure, theme, setting all that stuff, right. So to master it, it's gonna take a little bit of time. So you go through the fast screenplay system, which is the acronym which is the system and the end the process itself.

Alex Ferrari 56:04
Well, we come to the part of the show that I asked the same three questions to all of my, all of my guests. So these are the toughest questions you'll ever have. So be yourself.

Jeff Bollow 56:13
I didn't. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't listen to other ones to prepare. So this is new to me.

Alex Ferrari 56:18
Okay. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn in life or in the film business? But lesson that took me the longest to learn? That's a good question. Thank you.

Jeff Bollow 56:37
Do you often have people stumped looking at the

Alex Ferrari 56:40
wall for a second buy? It comes to them?

Jeff Bollow 56:43
I think I think that probably is that I'm enough.

Alex Ferrari 56:48
Yeah, that's that's a that's an answer. I've heard from other Yes, as well.

Jeff Bollow 56:53
Yeah. You know, look, it's funny because MMA, you know, all along and I often attributed to growing up trying to be an actor in LA. He really I mean,

Alex Ferrari 57:02
it was an actor. It was an actor who said that, by the way.

Jeff Bollow 57:05
It's it doesn't surprise me as a kid I went to probably without exaggeration, 1000 auditions, and I probably booked about 50 parts. And that's a lot of rejection. Right? I'm too. I'm too thin. I'm too fat. I'm too tall. I'm too short. I'm too good looking. I'm not I'm ugly. I'm all All right. So on some level I always attributed to, to that, that I, I hadn't felt like it was okay to express my creative core. And so through teaching writing, I think it was only through teaching right? I never wanted to be a writing teacher that was I'd never would have imagined back then that that's what I that's what I would be doing today. But in many ways through doing that it's helped me realize and appreciate now because it because I see the insecurities in every single person, every writer, you can see the insecurities. And it's like, No, just trust it. Trust this trust you and you trust. I always tell people if you can trust me, you can trust my system that will turn into a trust for yourself. And so in some ways, I'm trying to convey that very lesson to everyone that I teach.

Alex Ferrari 58:25
Good answer, sir. What is your top three films of all time? See, that's always a killer. Yeah, it could be just a bunch of lists that get to come to mind today.

Jeff Bollow 58:39
Well, I think it's hard to go past Shawshank Redemption just because it's such a it's just such a flawless film, right? It's a beautiful piece of filmmaking. I don't want to here's the thing. I don't know that I could say of all time, because I find value in even crappy films.

Alex Ferrari 58:57
Of course I do, too. Like there's some there's some like ad schlock that I'll watch and you know, I love watching commando, like commando is awesome. Yeah. But it's horrendous film. It's horribly structured. There's cardboard cutouts that are being blown up as soldiers. I mean, it's a horrible, horrible, horrible film. But I love it. So yes, I completely. So just three favorite films that really quickly.

Jeff Bollow 59:21
Well, I'll tell you one that I saw recently, I don't know if I would call it as as an all time favorite, but I loved it. It's a tiny little indie film called coherence. Okay, if you're if you're since you're an indie film podcast, I think your listeners would probably love this film. It's made on a tiny budget. I don't even know what in like micro budget, and it's just such a cool idea. And it's really well executed. And it shows you what can be done and it's also sci fi in a cool sort of way that I like I don't wanna say too much about it, because it actually gives away sort of the core premise of it. But that have you seen a movie called primer? Yeah. Of course okay so it's it's not like primer in that sense but it's that low budget indie thing where they've done something really really cool

Alex Ferrari 1:00:08
oh very cool okay

Jeff Bollow 1:00:11
yeah I mean I'm a huge sort of time travel and sci fi not I love those kinds of stories so

Alex Ferrari 1:00:17
Back to the Future obviously

Jeff Bollow 1:00:21
there's another flawless film it there are some films they're literally they are flawless you can't you can't pick it up nothing you would change even down to you know which on the actor's face like it's just flawless so

yeah

Alex Ferrari 1:00:38
those are three those are three right there yeah I want to be

Jeff Bollow 1:00:42
one but I have a I have a very wide variety of I like obscure films and for you know what Another one is great one is cinema parody so no cinema

Alex Ferrari 1:00:50
paradisio yeah if any film any film lover any any movie love Yeah,

Jeff Bollow 1:00:55
well maybe that's it. Yeah, you just

Alex Ferrari 1:00:57
gotta go over Yeah, as a film lover you just watch that music so Oh,

Jeff Bollow 1:01:01
good. One is living in oblivion. Oh, I love living in Oblivion, so we're gonna get down to that. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:05
but if you're a filmmaker everyone out there you must look for a movie called living in oblivion. I'll put it in the show notes. Oh

Jeff Bollow 1:01:11
boy. It is it is Steve Buscemi earliest vision

Alex Ferrari 1:01:15
early Steve Buscemi. It's a movie about making movies. And when I hear

Jeff Bollow 1:01:19
Dinklage has the greatest part in the history of time

Alex Ferrari 1:01:24
and and my favorite part of that one of my favorite parts is when the grip pulls out the screenplay and gives it to the producer. Exactly. I've been working on and I'm wanting to tell you all that oh, my God, but he carries the screenplay in his back pocket that's what I remember was so vividly is like he's just like busted out and give it to state in Maine is another great one. Oh state Maine is fantastic state and main is another weight movie making movie movie about moviemaking is absolutely brilliant. Who was Mamet? Right That was Mamet wasn't Mamet Philip Seymour Hoffman. Actor so brilliant. Wonderful. And then can you name one under really underrated film?

Jeff Bollow 1:02:05
We've probably probably did there a few you know what I'm gonna go on record as saying Star Wars The Force Awakens

Alex Ferrari 1:02:15
very, very underrated film is it and I don't know spoilers

Jeff Bollow 1:02:18
but go ahead. That movie has gotten a lot of a lot of flack from especially from industry people are people who are saying that it's just a rip off of a new hope and you know that it's not I here's the thing about that movie I

Alex Ferrari 1:02:32
love that you've called this the most underrated

Jeff Bollow 1:02:35
you're going to you are well only only because there I know there's a lot of haters about that film. But you're going to look at this film after the next to come out and see brilliance in The Force Awakens that you can't see right now because I mean one of my one of the whole sort of principles upon which everything I do is built is the notion of setup and payoff. I believe that that is sort of the core of it all right, so everything is either set up or pay off. And that movie is set up set up set up set up and it's fantastic it's just gonna pay off in May I'm so I've always been a Star Wars fan. I didn't like the prequels but I I am not a geek fan. I'm just I'm just appreciative fan. That is like I'm just so excited about what they've done with that and where they're going with the whole thing and I think it gets derided from especially from a screenwriting standpoint because everyone's only looking at the similarities to a new hope and they're not they're not appreciating why those similarities are likely to be there

Alex Ferrari 1:03:44
yeah it's I I am I am actually at it's a very well documented Star Wars full blown geek

Jeff Bollow 1:03:52
okay you know as I do things like the ring theory and all that

Alex Ferrari 1:03:57
no I'm not that guy I don't go but I but I carry Yoda close to me on all times he's always at all times. So I think more geek than me is much more I have a life size Yoda here in my office it's it's I've had him for years cool yeah it's I've had it Yeah, I could I don't want to go down to geek road because I could I could go hard really really quickly but the thing is I saw the movie and I I loved it and I'm a big fan of it and I can't wait to go see it again. But I just enjoyed it and I enjoyed the trip and the whole thing that JJ did with it and he did it so nicely and so tightly and there is a lot of haters out there but I don't I don't I don't personally care and I know there's a lot of but there's more lovers than haters because it's made to build no

Jeff Bollow 1:04:44
I mean there are and that movie will be just fine whether it's got me as it's different. Exactly. But but just but only because the the sort of circle that I've been playing in for a while is the screenwriting and screenwriting education stamp channel. That's right. Thing within that world it's it's it gets consistently bashed. And I think it's just so unfair because it's it's far more remarkable than it appears to be on the surface. It's also just a great ride. You know what I mean? Oh yeah, it's just that's icing on the cake. It's but underlying that is is is quite a stunning achievement in my opinion and

Alex Ferrari 1:05:22
that he's created probably one of the best here female hero heroes in the last heroine in the last 20 years if not longer. Yeah. Because she's amazing Ray's character that character is absolutely remarkable.

Jeff Bollow 1:05:36
Well, I think there will be some I think there'll be some cool reveals Yeah, in which in future episodes, we

Alex Ferrari 1:05:42
won't we won't, we won't go down too far. But again, going the same route where you were talking about the screenwriters kind of, you know, snub their nose at it. They also snub their nose at Titanic and they also snub the rows at avatar. And as avatar is just ferngully it's just dances with no,

Jeff Bollow 1:05:58
but so you know, that actually makes brings up a really interesting point because I'm also a fan of avatar. I think they're mistaking the mythological structure for copycatting, right right so that in or if you so in the hands of a hack, right or a truly hack writer, you he would copy ferngully and it would not have the same resonance as avatar does. But what Cameron has done even cameras an exceptional film I mean not box off

Alex Ferrari 1:06:35
success is amazing.

Jeff Bollow 1:06:37
He is he actually is really good at what he does. Yes. And he's another one that gets derided a lot which is by the way this doesn't I'm not trying to imply that I'm only about the blockbuster he kinda first I love the I love obscure cinema,

Alex Ferrari 1:06:53
living in Oblivion, you know, those? I mean, they're small movies.

Jeff Bollow 1:06:57
But I think you have to respect I always judge something based on what is it that they were trying to achieve? And did they achieve it effectively. So by that, by that you if you look at a screenplay or you look at store a story through that filter, a lot of these things that look to be simplistic or plagiaristic or copycat are actually not there. They're using the mythological structure in a completely original way. And so you know, avatar is I would if you had done this podcast back then it probably was an avatar is the most underrated so I think it's important for writers and filmmakers in general to understand the big mythological structures to understand most people don't understand the three act structure they understand where the things happen, but they don't understand why the things happen where they happen. So that's what leads to hack ism that's what leads to people copying something effectively right but if you understand what the why behind all of it you can use the the structures to your own advantage or you can play around with the structures and come up with something new and different in a way that is also effective.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:16
Jeff I won't take up any more of your time this is we've got we've geeked out a little bit too much hopefully, I hope the audience didn't mind but but there's some good there's some good knowledge in that geek out as well so that hopefully something hopefully somebody learned something today. So Oh, so where can people find you sir?

Jeff Bollow 1:08:35
The probably the easiest place is to go to fast screenplay.com or, or the YouTube channel youtube.com slash fast screenplay. Or just Google my name or writing fast or fast screenplay.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:49
Great, and I'll have links to everything we've discussed in the show notes as always guys. Sounds good. Jeff, thank you again so much for taking the time man.

Jeff Bollow 1:08:56
I really appreciate it had a great time.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:59
I hope you guys learned something from that episode. Jeff was a ball to talk to you, man. And we did geek out a bit on the show. So please forgive us but I think there's some knowledge that got mixed in there somewhere with all that Geeking geeking out so I hope you guys enjoyed it. As always, if you need the show notes, they are at indie film hustle.com forward slash zero 99 and I'll have links for all the things we discussed in this episode. And guys, if you guys have not taken the Warner Hertzog masterclass, I'm telling you I've gone through it, it's pretty, pretty remarkable especially for for people like myself who've been in the business for 20 years, you definitely pick up a bunch of cool stuff, but for someone starting out, my God, I would have killed for something like this. When I was first starting out, so just head over to indie film hustle.com forward slash masterclass. And definitely check it out. One Hertzog remarkable, remarkable course. And guys, the next episode is going to be Episode 100 And I am still thinking what I can do to make it a special episode. I'm working on it, but you will get something soon for Episode 100 so but before I even go into Episode 100 I want to thank everybody, all the fans, all the tribe members who have been listening and supporting what we do or what you do what I do here at indie film hustle. And and with the podcast as well. So thank you so much and and I get I mean, I'm getting so many messages from you guys on Facebook and Twitter, and email telling me your stories and, and how this podcast has inspired you and helped you and guide you through your filmmaking journey. And my God, it's it's so humbling to hear all these amazing stories. So guys, please and also pay forward man, you know, if you learn something, share that information with somebody else. Don't ever feel that you have to hold on to knowledge because oh my god, if I give it to that guy, he might take a job boy from your job, but they don't think that way you can't think about things like that, you know, high tide raises all boats. And that's how you have to look at it. You know, the more informations out there, the better movies that are being made, the better for everybody and the better for the whole industry and the whole the whole kit and caboodle as they say so please pay it forward, spread the word. Please let everybody know about the podcast let everybody know about the website and and hopefully we can keep helping more and more filmmakers and hopefully new generations of filmmakers coming up to make better and better and better content, better stories and better art and hopefully that will change the world just a little bit because art is extremely powerful guys movies cinema is extremely powerful. And as I always say it is your responsibility to get your out your art out into the world because you have no idea how it will affect somebody else. Thanks again guys keep that hustle going keep that dream alive and I will talk to you in Episode 100